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Forum Saradas  |  News and Discussion  |  Wrong decision  |  Hypothetical Ms Olympia 1994
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Author Topic: Hypothetical Ms Olympia 1994  (Read 16141 times)

Offline lorao

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Re: Hypothetical Ms Olympia 1994
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2016, 02:05:47 am »
Have to laugh at those who think Denise would not have been a good Ms. O.  Clearly she was another one of those elephant in the room types of competitors whose lack of big wins proved the contests were fixed.  Alison you're way too diplomatic re. the question of Cory and steroids but I understand your reasoning as a public figure of sorts. 

Offline alison brundage

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Re: Hypothetical Ms Olympia 1994
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2016, 12:20:03 am »
Have to laugh at those who think Denise would not have been a good Ms. O.  Clearly she was another one of those elephant in the room types of competitors whose lack of big wins proved the contests were fixed.  Alison you're way too diplomatic re. the question of Cory and steroids but I understand your reasoning as a public figure of sorts.
We'll never know on the steroid-taking issue of those who were great unless they own up.....   Cory had one great personal trainer in Jeff.  She and Jeff headed out to Cally into the mecca of all things muscular.  She went from a tall athletic track and field athlete who lifted weights with her boyfriend to a drop dead beautiful muscular diva trained by her then husband.  It was a rocket ship journey into stardom.....many girls today dream of having. 

Offline lorao

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Re: Hypothetical Ms Olympia 1994
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2016, 01:15:01 am »
You've sort of hit on my reasoning in the case of Cory.  Way too much like Dara Torres and Kim Chizevsky in my opinion.  When those you associate with are experts in the field of PEDs and all of a sudden you're orders of magnitude better than the competition you immediately are suspect.  Requiring that the taker of the PEDs confess is wishful thinking too as it's also possible Cory took whatever "supplementation" Jeff offered without  asking too many questions, creating your classic plausible deniability scenario.  You see that so often in these cases and so forgive me if I don't believe that everyone caught red handed was using a contaminated legal supplement from their trainer unless it was in fact the trainer who contaminated it.

Offline alison brundage

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Re: Hypothetical Ms Olympia 1994
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2016, 01:16:04 pm »
You've sort of hit on my reasoning in the case of Cory.  Way too much like Dara Torres and Kim Chizevsky in my opinion.  When those you associate with are experts in the field of PEDs and all of a sudden you're orders of magnitude better than the competition you immediately are suspect.  Requiring that the taker of the PEDs confess is wishful thinking too as it's also possible Cory took whatever "supplementation" Jeff offered without  asking too many questions, creating your classic plausible deniability scenario.  You see that so often in these cases and so forgive me if I don't believe that everyone caught red handed was using a contaminated legal supplement from their trainer unless it was in fact the trainer who contaminated it.
Yes....my thoughts.  Natural athletic potential, excellence in coaching , best equipment and a transformation that gives you whip lash.  On top on that , in time the best of the best taking your photos, and the best of the moneymakers ( Weider) encouraging your continued success.  Cory ( like D Dianna ) also had excellent coaching in putting together an artful routine that was entertaining as well did not waste one second in showing her at her absolute best.   PEDS and careful monitoring of her using same may well have been in the mix.  In the end it's a Fairy Tale story ( of sorts).  Tons of money was made, fame as well for a LONG time.   BUT...her life-time partner choice did not last a lifetime and she  disappeared from sight like the explosion of a supernova.

Many of us on this forum would enjoy her sharing her current fitness routine, and what she is up to athletically now..... 

Me?....I'm off for the gym then a week of surfing.......

I'm 71 now...that was a couple of months ago.




Last week at the river with friends........

Alison
And once again...I never once took PEDS, still lift, still am muscular and in shape ( loosely speaking),...and I'm an ole fart !

Offline lorao

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Re: Hypothetical Ms Olympia 1994
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2016, 12:29:18 am »
Great pictures Alison, K+ ... I've heard it said that steroid gains are not as long lasting as natural gains hence the "supernova" analogy, you'd be a good candidate for the grand masters division.  Clearly bb is an interesting sport from a longevity viewpoint, you have two competing views of "wear and tear" versus "use it or lose it."  It seems like it's really a question of whether you can still train as those who can still train effectively are sort of in the "use it or lose it" division by default; if you can't train effectively anymore you may have too much "wear and tear"

Offline alison brundage

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Re: Hypothetical Ms Olympia 1994
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2016, 09:28:22 pm »
Great pictures Alison, K+ ... I've heard it said that steroid gains are not as long lasting as natural gains hence the "supernova" analogy, you'd be a good candidate for the grand masters division.  Clearly bb is an interesting sport from a longevity viewpoint, you have two competing views of "wear and tear" versus "use it or lose it."  It seems like it's really a question of whether you can still train as those who can still train effectively are sort of in the "use it or lose it" division by default; if you can't train effectively anymore you may have too much "wear and tear"
It's a problem.   I have an artificial hip...can't squat.  Tried a Smith frame and my shoulders are so beat I can't really grip the bar with a standard grip.    So I rest the bar on my upper chest for squats and that works with my husband there to help rack up. It's at least something.   My left knee is shot...always hurts after leg extensions..  About all I can do is work around it all and do exercises that don't do damage to the already damaged part.  There's always a way around it.  I'd love to get back to the heavy lifts but like you said...it's just the wear and tear of being 71 and years of non-stop athletics.  Shit happens......hey, I'm still breathing!   That's the good news.

Offline comp

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Re: Hypothetical Ms Olympia 1994
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2017, 08:52:25 pm »
For many reasons, it would be extremely controversial, but for purely commercial reasons, Sharon Bruneau winning in 1994 might have ensured that there would be a Ms. Olympia bodybuilding title today.


Offline lorao

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Re: Hypothetical Ms Olympia 1994
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2017, 06:25:26 pm »
Interesting take, in this picture Sharon looks just like today's "physique women" so she is hardly anything radical that we no longer can see anymore.  So you basically have the case that today you have the best of all possible worlds freaky bigger is better girls along with girls like Sharon who while not in the "fbb" division any more are obviously taking "supplements" for aesthetic reasons.  Off topic I got a huge kick seeing the woman on yahoo! who was featured for doing Crossfit every day for a year "it's not what you would expect" was the sub-caption.  Sure enough the girl barely looked different from her day 1 picture.  Now she may not have had the genetics of Alison but what it clearly proved was that the so-called "elite" lady Crossfitters are ALL supplementing to an incredible degree while Reebok looks the other way and pretends it's "protein powder."

Offline comp

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Re: Hypothetical Ms Olympia 1994
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2017, 10:01:15 pm »
In a counter-intuitive way, I think that there would be far more "extreme muscle" women bodybuilders today if Ms. Olympia awarded explicitly more commercially accessible physiques, in that the competition would attract and inspire a much larger pool of women to train to a wide variety of development. Of course, doing so would not be fair and in many ways quite insulting to those who have trained their bodies beyond what the larger market considers desirable, but as unfair and insulting as it might be, it would at least be consistent and clear rather than the very confusing and fickle messages judges have passed down throughout the competition's history.

Offline lorao

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Re: Hypothetical Ms Olympia 1994
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2017, 10:55:30 pm »
A little bit confused by your post as the problem was never that the bigger girls were dominating all of the competitions, if you remember Lenda Murray won the "night show" after losing the real show to Bev Francis.  The criteria, for the women anyway was NEVER "may the best bodybuilder win" regardless of marketability and that fact in effect opened up the physique and smaller girls to criticism whenever they beat one of the bigger girls in "fbb'ing," as they were "winning" despite being obviously lesser competitors by "bodybuilding" standards.  The reason for the multiple divisions, physique, fitness, etc. which in effect "destroyed real fbb'ing" was that the smaller physique girls were able to take some of their marbles and go home to a competition for smaller girls only that the bigger girls couldn't compete in.  Since the number of marbles, the prize money for women's "shows" was in effect "fixed" by market demand  ... and so in effect the smaller girls could have their cake and eat it too, they didn't have to face the criticism of the pure bodybuilding fans every time they won.   Those fans saw winners like Rachel McLish as being "imposters" to the "real" sport and the money they took home in their small girl competitions came at the expense of prize money that was originally earmarked only for one big show for real fbb'ers, the type of shows that caused the big arguments like how could Rachel McLish defeat Bev Francis in a "real" bodybuilding show.  It was these "mixed" events that caused the real downfall of women's bodybuilding as there was always going to be separate niches of fans in those sort of shows who preferred debating the benefits of femininity versus muscularity rather than just enjoying the differences and letting various types win from competition to competition.  By creating artificial repeat winners in effect the Weider's destroyed the sport they claimed to love.

Offline comp

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Re: Hypothetical Ms Olympia 1994
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2017, 05:05:51 am »
That makes sense. Certainly the winner placings had some kind of eye towards marketability, but to me it seems they tried to thread the needle and ended up pleasing no one.

It would definitely be strange to see FBBs in qualifiers be substantially more developed than the reigning Ms. Olympia.

Offline lorao

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Re: Hypothetical Ms Olympia 1994
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2017, 04:36:02 pm »
Sure but it happened all the time.  I remember when the AAU girls like Deb Poston were massive compared to the Weider girls who were winning the "big" competitions.  It was made even more ridiculous by "entrance criteria" where a girl like Deb Poston wasn't even qualified to compete against the Weider girls who owned their "pro" cards.

Offline comp

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Re: Hypothetical Ms Olympia 1994
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2017, 01:48:23 am »
I think the key to making it work would have been to insure that the most developed contestants competed alongside the most commercially viable, even if the difference between them strains the credibility of the title. I'm not sure how you could rig a scoring system to support both modes simultaneously. It'd be tricky to say the least. Maybe split the crown itself up into separate avenues within the same contest (most developed physique, audience favorite, sponsor favorite), and once in a great while you might have a unicorn that wins them all.

It'd be interesting to see a comparison of Deb Poston and the pros of that time.

Offline lorao

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Re: Hypothetical Ms Olympia 1994
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2017, 02:39:10 am »
Again the real problem is that bodybuilding is an aesthetic rather than an objective sport.  In aesthetic sports like gymnastics and diving the "maximum" level competitor often loses to the judges' favorites.  As examples you had the old Acapulco cliff diving competitions where all of the Mexican competitors did traditional "swan dives" as Americans who did multiple gainers with twists often "lost" to the Mexican locals diving on their home cliff.  Perhaps the worst was what happened to Tonya Harding, with the fix in her much higher and objectively better jumps were never going to defeat Nancy Kerrigan who despite being a creditable athlete herself was willing to sell herself to the judges in a way Tonya never was willing to do, Tonya felt justified in letting her boyfriend hire goons to do to Nancy what the judges would never let her do metaphorically to Nancy in a real competition rather than the fake one the Olympics was staging.  The soap opera culminated with Surya Bonaly tired of the nonsense did an illegal back flip in her final competition.  Knowing her stride and costume were never going to win over the judges she just decided to show her superiority the only way she knew how by doing a jump NONE of the other girls could do and one that only a few men skating in exhibitions could do.

Offline comp

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Re: Hypothetical Ms Olympia 1994
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2017, 09:29:28 pm »
I agree the subjectivity is an unremovable challenge.
What do you think about super league which has an objective point scoring system? I can see how such a thing would be extremely attractive to competitors who are tired of the whimsy of the judges (and a fair number of FBBs have joined), though how popular could it get for a general audience?

Forum Saradas  |  News and Discussion  |  Wrong decision  |  Hypothetical Ms Olympia 1994
 

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