HBC ISSUES

[ark [abracadabra]]

The addiction I referenced is a more general thing, I'm not being specific to hbc. For example, one might be addicted to wrestling videos. There's logically no reason to subscribe to utopia's site for more than one month. Every new video is more or less the same as the old videos, just slightly different girls/guys, whatever. (As an aside, grappling girls is the strongmichelle of wrestling websites: they lie in their descriptions and don't post any video previews, roping you into making purchases you regret. I assume they're still in business largely because people are addicted.) Or they might be addicted to "interactive porn" via webcam. Once it's recorded, it's no longer the same as live entertainment. Or they might get addicted to real entertainment they get at a strip club, or to sessions. It provides a high, much like drugs or alcohol. You can see how addicted some guys are to these things. There are guys on here who have apparently sessioned with basically every woman on the planet, or chat with every single new girl on hbc immediately. They get a rush.

I'm also not saying hbc is a rip-off, only that certain women are clearly dishonest there and those specific women rip you off. Among all the cam sites out there, hbc is the best at giving you refunds for entering an empty waiting room, or if you lose money because of connection problems (on a different site, they tried to guilt me by saying "keep in mind this will hurt the girl financially" as if me paying to see an empty room is somehow acceptable or doesn't hurt me financially). But IMO when you have a dozen customers on your public forums saying "michelle is a con artist," to dismiss that with "vote with your wallet" instead of "we're looking into it" is clearly a sign that they care only about money, and not their customers (or the fact that they continue to work with ***** instead of using a service like CCBill that is secure and doesn't steal from customers). Michelle is evidently tricking a nontrivial number of guys into throwing money at her. Or was, I have no idea if she's still active. I haven't talked to her in a long time, but I vaguely recall she was very good at dragging what should be done in 5 minutes into a 30-minute private. It's easy to sit back and judge people for making poor decisions, but there's a reason con artists succeed.

[kostas]

I mean, the whole point of this (and other forms of porn) is to get you addicted. That's why people often don't vote with their wallet. If you want to continue to exploit people in that way instead of doing your best to offer the best possible product, go ahead. Either way, the way they deal with these problems isn't really a surprise, given that they hire extremely slow-working foreign developers and continue to host their main site with diana***** even though they know it's an insecure website that keeps clients' credit card numbers and steals money via fake companies.


[What do you mean by saying they steal money via fake companies and keep client credit card numbers; Are you sure about that and has that happened to you;  I use credit card, and if than happens really, i will never ever buy credits from this site. Please be more specific in your reply so we can know too, what you mean. thanks

[ark [abracadabra]]

Not the HBC site, the regular herbiceps site. Actually, any site hosted on diana***** (hb, femflex, collegeflex, ...). There have been other threads documenting this, so I won't derail this thread too much, but I won't join herbiceps.com again because I know there's a 100% chance I'll get fraudulent charges on my card, will have to dispute them and cancel my card. I once tried signing up using a prepaid card so they couldn't steal, and lo and behold, diana declined the transaction, I wonder why...

[kostas]

Not the HBC site, the regular herbiceps site. Actually, any site hosted on diana***** (hb, femflex, collegeflex, ...). There have been other threads documenting this, so I won't derail this thread too much, but I won't join herbiceps.com again because I know there's a 100% chance I'll get fraudulent charges on my card, will have to dispute them and cancel my card. I once tried signing up using a prepaid card so they couldn't steal, and lo and behold, diana declined the transaction, I wonder why...

so you are not talking about herbicepscam.com site. Ok. I dont have any experience on herbiceps site , i only use herbicepscam'S  site . By the way does anyone know if i can buy as many credits as i want, for example 10 instead 0f 25 as it is on the category ''buy credits''. I havent undertand why i must only buy credits for 25 dollars, or for 50 dollars, and not as many or less than that i want.

[fp909]

their pay scale is pretty standard for a lot of things. 25/50/100, etc.

[FemFlexUSA]

diana***** even though they know it's an insecure website that keeps clients' credit card numbers and steals money via fake companies.

Not the HBC site, the regular herbiceps site. Actually, any site hosted on diana***** (hb, femflex, collegeflex, ...). There have been other threads documenting this, so I won't derail this thread too much, but I won't join herbiceps.com again because I know there's a 100% chance I'll get fraudulent charges on my card

Fake news.

[FemFlexUSA]

But IMO when you have a dozen customers on your public forums saying "michelle is a con artist," to dismiss that with "vote with your wallet" instead of "we're looking into it" is clearly a sign that they care only about money, and not their customers

"Some guy on the internet said" is not actual evidence.  We've been very clear in stating that we don't want our site being used as a vehicle to commit fraud, but unless and until we receive reports from customers who give us specific details that can be investigated, it's unreasonable to state "those guys don't care about customers!" because we didn't set someone on fire over allegations that have never been outlined to us. Of course you can say whatever you want or whatever you feel, but if you believe a specific model has defrauded you, why aren't you communicating the details of that to us?  Sure, I'll visit the boards a few times a week, but we're monitoring our customer service inbox daily.  Regardless of whom you're doing business with, contacting a company directly is almost always the best way to tackle any issues.

help@herbicepscam.com

[ark [abracadabra]]

Not fake news. I have the credit card statements to prove it. I have had to cancel my credit card multiple times in the past, only because of herbiceps signups. I have had real money stolen from me. There's no reason not to use CCBill. I'm not the only one this has happened to.

Typical response. Of course you should want very specific details, but to be dismissive with your customers is bad business. It's clear you just care about money, which is why Michelle is allowed to do what she does. The correct response is "please email us with details," not "vote with your wallet."

[LiveFree]

The addiction I referenced is a more general thing, I'm not being specific to hbc. For example, one might be addicted to wrestling videos. There's logically no reason to subscribe to utopia's site for more than one month. Every new video is more or less the same as the old videos, just slightly different girls/guys, whatever. (As an aside, grappling girls is the strongmichelle of wrestling websites: they lie in their descriptions and don't post any video previews, roping you into making purchases you regret. I assume they're still in business largely because people are addicted.) Or they might be addicted to "interactive porn" via webcam. Once it's recorded, it's no longer the same as live entertainment. Or they might get addicted to real entertainment they get at a strip club, or to sessions. It provides a high, much like drugs or alcohol. You can see how addicted some guys are to these things. There are guys on here who have apparently sessioned with basically every woman on the planet, or chat with every single new girl on hbc immediately. They get a rush.

I'm also not saying hbc is a rip-off, only that certain women are clearly dishonest there and those specific women rip you off. Among all the cam sites out there, hbc is the best at giving you refunds for entering an empty waiting room, or if you lose money because of connection problems (on a different site, they tried to guilt me by saying "keep in mind this will hurt the girl financially" as if me paying to see an empty room is somehow acceptable or doesn't hurt me financially). But IMO when you have a dozen customers on your public forums saying "michelle is a con artist," to dismiss that with "vote with your wallet" instead of "we're looking into it" is clearly a sign that they care only about money, and not their customers (or the fact that they continue to work with ***** instead of using a service like CCBill that is secure and doesn't steal from customers). Michelle is evidently tricking a nontrivial number of guys into throwing money at her. Or was, I have no idea if she's still active. I haven't talked to her in a long time, but I vaguely recall she was very good at dragging what should be done in 5 minutes into a 30-minute private. It's easy to sit back and judge people for making poor decisions, but there's a reason con artists succeed.

I guess I'm a little confused because on one hand you're accusing HB of fraud and theft and then coming back and saying they're not a rip-off. Either they're bad guys or not. If you feel those allegations are true, I have no idea why you would ever give them your money on hbc. I understand they're different platforms, but it's the same ownership and basically same team who you said stole from you. This is a very serious allegation so you should provide some form of proof. I have no idea why they would steal when they're making millions, but again. If it's true show the proof. What are the name's of the companies that illegally withdrew from your account?

In regards to specific models. Again, Mike is right. Vote with your wallet. We have the power to literally punish bad offenders on our own without the assistance of HBC. If people are addicted to the rush of live chat... They can still get that from many other models and not the bad ones.

Again, hope you understand where I'm coming from.

[ark [abracadabra]]

I'm not accusing HB of fraud or theft, I'm accusing them of knowingly using an insecure payment system (unlike CCBill), where diana***** or someone associated records credit card information and steals money. There have been other threads here documenting this. I'm not going to post my bank statements here for all to see, but they were fake companies claiming to be selling weight loss products. When my bank tried to get in contact with them, they were unsuccessful. These "companies" no longer have active websites (I haven't subscribed to hb for years because of this), but did at the time of theft. When I tried to use a prepaid visa once, diana declined the purchase (it was fine on other porn websites like clips4sale). There's no reason not to switch to a secure payment processor.

Nevertheless, this is completely disjoint from the HBC billing system. I'm not claiming any fraudulent behavior other than a few models lying, refusing to flex, etc. My only claim is that the owners are essentially defending the few fraudulent models by being dismissive and not saying "please email us with specific details." I think you and I are making the same points really. That voting with your wallet is of course the ideal situation, but many people don't, and that they should maintain high standards for their models, but sadly don't care as long as they're making money.

[LiveFree]

I'm not accusing HB of fraud or theft, I'm accusing them of knowingly using an insecure payment system (unlike CCBill), where diana***** or someone associated records credit card information and steals money. There have been other threads here documenting this. I'm not going to post my bank statements here for all to see, but they were fake companies claiming to be selling weight loss products. When my bank tried to get in contact with them, they were unsuccessful. These "companies" no longer have active websites (I haven't subscribed to hb for years because of this), but did at the time of theft. When I tried to use a prepaid visa once, diana declined the purchase (it was fine on other porn websites like clips4sale). There's no reason not to switch to a secure payment processor.

Nevertheless, this is completely disjoint from the HBC billing system. I'm not claiming any fraudulent behavior other than a few models lying, refusing to flex, etc. My only claim is that the owners are essentially defending the few fraudulent models by being dismissive and not saying "please email us with specific details."

This is honestly the first I've ever heard of this. I searched "herbiceps.com fraud", "herbiceps.com stolen credit card", "*****.com fraud" and "Diana the Valkyrie fraud" nothing comes up for any of those searches. Not asking you to share your bank statements just the names of the companies in question. If it matches those that I've had steal money from me, then there's something here.

I think you and I are making the same points really. That voting with your wallet is of course the ideal situation, but many people don't, and that they should maintain high standards for their models, but sadly don't care as long as they're making money.

The community needs to stop being submissive pussies. This goes beyond hbc.

[FemFlexUSA]

so you are not talking about herbicepscam.com site. Ok. I dont have any experience on herbiceps site , i only use herbicepscam'S  site . By the way does anyone know if i can buy as many credits as i want, for example 10 instead 0f 25 as it is on the category ''buy credits''. I havent undertand why i must only buy credits for 25 dollars, or for 50 dollars, and not as many or less than that i want.

Email us at help@herbicepscam.com.  We'd be happy to help you with this. 

Not fake news. I have the credit card statements to prove it. I have had to cancel my credit card multiple times in the past, only because of herbiceps signups. I have had real money stolen from me. There's no reason not to use CCBill. I'm not the only one this has happened to.

HerBiceps has been using DtV billing - dba Internet Privacy - since 2002.  In that time, no one has emailed to outline the complaint you're alleging. When you consider the entire universe of sites - DtV, FemFlex, Collegeflex, AthleticWomenMagazine, Muscletease, SheWrestles, Buffyflex (I think it is), Bicepworld, etc - you're talking about a substantial number of transactions. 

Now, to be clear, I'm not saying that there's a 0% chance you're telling the truth, nor am I suggesting that a database can be 100% secure (unless it is hidden, blank, and connected to nothing!), but I am saying that - in 15 years' time - no one has contacted us with this complaint.  If - as you allege - there are others, one might wonder why no one has brought the matter to our direct attention in a way that can be investigated. 

Typical response. Of course you should want very specific details, but to be dismissive with your customers is bad business. It's clear you just care about money, which is why Michelle is allowed to do what she does. The correct response is "please email us with details," not "vote with your wallet."

On this board multiple times, I've said that we cannot investigate what we don't know about and asked people to contact us with information if they feel they've been defrauded by a model logged into our system. It has yet to happen. The only poster who has posted even a skeleton outline of what went on with him began by stating that they had been in touch with one another OFF THE SITE.  How on earth could you possibly expect us to bear any responsibility whatsoever in a transaction between 2 consenting adults that had nothing to do with us? 

If someone wishes not to let us know if they've had this experience with her, that's their prerogative.  If you don't like a model's attitude toward you in Free chat, give another model the chance to earn your business. 

[ark [abracadabra]]

to be clear, I'm not saying that there's a 0% chance you're telling the truth

No, you're just screaming fake news like you're Donald Trump. I guess you expect me to believe that it's just a coincidence when I've never had a single fraudulent charge on my card when I haven't signed up for herbiceps, but get one every single time within a week of signing up for HB. Or that I should believe it's a coincidence that every single charge was fitness/health-related.

but I am saying that - in 15 years' time - no one has contacted us with this complaint

That's not true. I (and likely others) was told to vote with my wallet, or to use paypal instead of "we're going to use something with real security." Every respectable website in the industry uses CCBill. You don't. Why investigate anything when you can just deny facts? You know what's happened on the rare occasions when I paid for a subscription at utopia or hdphysiques but there was a delay in getting my login information set up? The owner dealt with it within hours, and even sent me a link to a free video download for the inconvenience. This is good business. You know what happens when I tell you guys that I've been stolen from and that you don't use secure billing practices? I get told fake news, get told to vote with my wallet, or get told to pay over paypal. At every opportunity, you send the message that you don't care about your customers.

On this board multiple times, I've said that we cannot investigate what we don't know about and asked people to contact us with information if they feel they've been defrauded by a model logged into our system. It has yet to happen. The only poster who has posted even a skeleton outline of what went on with him began by stating that they had been in touch with one another OFF THE SITE.  How on earth could you possibly expect us to bear any responsibility whatsoever in a transaction between 2 consenting adults that had nothing to do with us?

You know perfectly well it was brought to your attention on your forums that Michelle was being taken private, lying about "yeah I do topless, just take me 1on1," almost refusing to flex in private (every time you'd ask her to flex she'd spend at least 3-5 minutes typing "oh yeah look at my supreme muscles"), and all that typical eastern european stuff. Or she'd tell you she had someone to armwrestle, you go in private, and she keeps on dragging it out "he's coming, he's coming," and he's still not in the room 10 minutes later. You told people to vote with their wallet and didn't care because she was bringing in money. I have no idea what she did off hbc (though if she did get in touch with people off hbc, she was probably breaking the rules). You know pretty much the same thing happened with muscular desire, and you actually kicked her off the site. Then you let her back on almost immediately. It's pretty clear whose interests you have at heart.

[LiveFree]

One thing we can say for a fact is that the system is definitely not secure and more invasive than the popular payment processors used by their competitors. So the question is, why is HB not upgrading? Why is the most popular site still using out-dated technology and putting their customers information at greater risk? What's the reason for neither HB or DtV upgrading? It's a legitimate concern regardless of the allegations.

In regards to Michelle, what really stands out to me is their treatment of model issues vs customer issues. Despite all of the complaints she was actually rewarded. If you post anything negative about her on the HBC forums they will pass your IP along to her so she knows who you are on HBC. Ironically, again showing how much they care about backing their customers or maintaining their privacy.

I stand by Mike's statement. Vote with your wallet, don't give hbc your money if there's that significant of an issue at hb.

[FemFlexUSA]

One thing we can say for a fact is that the system is definitely not secure and more invasive than the popular payment processors used by their competitors. So the question is, why is HB not upgrading? Why is the most popular site still using out-dated technology and putting their customers information at greater risk?

One person (out of thousands) states that his card information was used fraudulently and, because the unauthorized charges were for health/fitness-related products, the user concluded that there was ONE AND ONLY ONE possible source for the illegal transfer of his card information.

The likelihood that there's only one possible source is less than the likelihood that there's more than one possible source.  And despite being asked multiple times, he has elected not to present his case directly to us.

If this were an actual problem, we would know about and we would address it.  The fact that there has been no NEED to change systems in 15 years should be at least a tiny indication that the system is secure. I don't know how an unsecured system could last so long in a digital (and competitive) marketplace.

And for the record, we do use ccBill for some of our other properties.  And we use Rocketgate at HBC.

In regards to Michelle, what really stands out to me is their treatment of model issues vs customer issues. Despite all of the complaints she was actually rewarded. If you post anything negative about her on the HBC forums they will pass your IP along to her so she knows who you are on HBC. Ironically, again showing how much they care about backing their customers or maintaining their privacy.

We are the ones who have always told performers and visitors not to exchange personal information.  When those exchanges have happened, that's not on us.

We won't comment publicly on any specific contractor concerns, but as a matter of policy we do not pass your IPs along to anyone.  I know it's late, but this idea what we're somehow colluding with performers to defraud or to stalk or to blackmail or to whatever it is you're thinking is unconscionable.  Even if we were willing to give up our personal time to invest in such nefarious activities, what could we possibly have to gain from that?  Think about it: on the one hand, it's being said that we're greedy and only care about money. But on the other hand, it's being said that we're engaging in actions that would potentially harm our customers and us and that we're doing it ....for free, with no chance of making any profit from it.